Andy:
Hey, everyone. We're here with another podcast today. I'm here with Dan from Smarter Security, and we're going to talk about turnstiles, the effective use of them, the different types of them and some problems they solve. So everybody welcome Dan, and we can get started with an overview of turnstiles and types and that kind of stuff. So take it away, Dan.
Dan:
Yeah, that'd be great. Thanks for having me. So yeah, turnstiles are going in a huge variety of buildings. Generally, when you're thinking about controlling access, physical access, the first thing people are doing is obviously a door. And on that door, you're putting some sort of access control, some sort of security, and that can be, obviously, a huge variety. It could be doing biometrics, just a prox card, really, anything, whatever you want to put in that facility, whatever your security system is, you're going to put it on that door. Where turnstiles start to come into play is that let's say I have credentials to be in the building. I hit that prox reader. I start coming in the building.
Dan:
Now the question is what's stopping people from coming in behind me. A lot of times, I think, companies are thinking that employees are going to self-police and they're going to be there to say, "Hey man, do you have your card? You can't follow in behind me." Or just be the policing force there. And the sad fact is people aren't going to do that. I don't even know if it's a sad fact. It's, especially here in Georgia, everyone's polite. Everyone is very courteous and so it just seems rude. You're not going to slam the door on someone. You're not going to do that.
Dan:
And if that's your security plan, if your security plan is that your employees are going to police themselves, then it's not a very good security plan. So turnstiles are coming into play to prevent that, to stop that, to detect it. The most common one, I would say, are full height turnstiles. Those are going to be going in a huge variety of facilities. Generally, almost always on the exterior. They are, a lot of people call them cheese graters, because they're big, like seven foot steel usually, sometimes aluminum contraptions that you come in. And really with those the name of the game is maximum security.
Dan:
So they are there as a physical barrier. The issue with those is basically there's one compartment you're going to go in. You're going to walk in that compartment and then you're going to use whatever sort of access control system is in the building. You're going to scan, you're going to use your retinal scanners, your hand scanners, just your prox card, whatever and it is going to allow one rotation per credential. The downfall with is that two people can go in there together or piggybacking. So if me and you both wanted to go in that compartment, we could both fit in there. I could scan my card and we can go through. The great thing about them though, is they are maximum security. So if I was trying to get in the facility and I didn't care if people knew I was trying to get in there, I just want to get in there they are going to be a hard stop.
Dan:
They are giant and they're made of metal. So unless you have a welding tool, hacksaw, something crazy, you're not going to be able to get in there. And those are primarily going to go on the exterior, usually on fence lines. They are, because they're so big, they're usually not going to go inside. They also have a certain aesthetic that a lot of corporations don't want inside. They're going to be more like manufacturing, distribution, warehouse type environments, generally, almost never, going in an office space. If you do need maximum security in that office space, they do make some that are basically all acrylic. And so they'll still have a steel frame, but they'll have acrylic, a rotational section, acrylic sightings. They look nicer. They look like they fit in a classic office building a little bit more, but they're still large, imposing, really big pieces of equipment.
Dan:
So I would say it's few and far between that they're ever going to go in that's that's a class A office building, that kind of environment. They are probably on the lower cost side of things. So that's a good thing. They're cost-effective, they're pretty slow because they are so big and you have to actually physically push your way through them most of the time. There's motorized versions, but they're big and clunky and slow as well. So you're probably talking about five seconds per person to get through those. So they are definitely going to be pretty slow. You're not going to get a ton of people through them. Another downfall with those is they don't allow for ADA access. So if you were in a wheelchair, you're not able to get through them. They make some that are really big and a wheelchair could totally fit through there, but they're still not going to be ADA compliant. Even if they're motorized, they're not going to be ADA compliant.
Dan:
So you have to basically put a pedestrian gate next to it as well. You can put access control on that, but then you're running into the same issue as you have with the door where once that gate is open, it's really hard to detect or prevent people from tailgating in behind someone. So those are some of the issues with those big full heights. But they're cost-effective, they're really common. Sold a ton of them in my lifetime. The other one that, I think, pairs along with a big, full height would be a waist-high turnstile. That's one I think everyone's familiar with those. It's like what you find at an amusement park or a lot of times football games have them. Some people call them tripods because they're usually three little metal bars that rotate.
Dan:
Those are the most cost-effective things you can get. Sometimes they're just mechanical. Sometimes they're just used for flow of control. You want to make sure people can go in one direction and not come back. For example, an entry point into an amusement park. They want to make sure once you're in that entrance, that you're going through a designated exit as well. You can put access control on them. You can put whatever you want on them. They have quite a few downfalls. The best thing about them is they're super cost effective. You could probably buy one for $6,000, maybe less. So that's a really nice thing about them.
Dan:
Problem is they're pretty low security. So first thing is they are, as the name implies, waist-high turnstiles. So I could jump right over them very, very easily. They are waist high. So if you don't have somebody watching them, it's pretty easy to get around them. You could also go under them really, really easily. What's nice about them is because they are low cost, but they do give a physical barrier. And really, there's no way for two people to go in one of those at once, just because of how they work. You can't fit two people into those rotational arms. So they accomplish that goal of stopping tailgating where a stranger's not going to be able to come in there and use your credentials to get in there with you. But they lack a lot of the security features that other turnstiles are going to have, like a full height turnstile. You can't get through that thing, no matter what you're doing, waist highs are very easy to get through. So the level of security is pretty low. That's counterbalanced with the low cost as well.
Dan:
And those are sometimes going in manufacturing, distribution centers. Those are going to be interior, unlike the full height turnstiles, which are almost always going to go interior. Sometimes they'll go exterior like at a ballpark or amusement park, something like that. And you can use them with time and attendance, is one factor. A lot of people use… They are having employees, instead of like going up and clocking in, and then maybe they came in, maybe they didn't, they're actually tying in with time and attendance. So you know that employee A came through that turnstile and they can't go back that other way. They're going to have to exit another portion of the building. So it's just a way to ensure that that employee is actually in the building and is there and didn't clock in and then leave. But those are, I would say probably the least common turnstile, just because I think they're so easy to beat that a lot of people aren't putting them in. They think I'd rather just put a door there and save a whole bunch of money versus putting in the waist high turnstiles.
Dan:
The next one would be optical turnstiles. Those are what I specialize in, what I've sold the most of. And they fit a really large variety of applications. I would say the one thing they don't really do well is go on the exterior. There are some that can be put outside if there's an awning, if there's covering. They're not made to be in direct sunlight, adverse weather conditions all the time. They have a lot of smarts and components in them that you don't want exposed to weather, especially extreme temperatures, monsoons, crazy weather like that. You definitely don't want them outside at all.
Dan:
If it's a pretty mild environment like you're talking about California, and you have an awning over them, you could put them outside. But those, there's there's a huge variety of them. The one that I would say everyone should be getting, if you're putting one in, is the swing gate style. Those are basically gates that are going to swing away from you as you're coming in and as you're exiting, they're going to swing the opposite way. So those, they can fit in, basically, any kind of facility because they have such a wide variety of things they can do, shapes they can take, you can make those waist high, you could do up to about chest height. And then you can do full height, which is going to be like over your head.
Dan:
They have a very fast throughput rate. You're talking about maybe one second or less per person. Really the only determining factor there is what sort of access control you're using. How slow people are going, how quickly they're going, is going to really determine how quickly you can get through there. Those are primarily made for detection of tailgating. Whereas a full height is actually a prevention of tailgate. It's going to make sure that you trying to come in behind me. There's no physical way for you to come in behind me because it's got a hard barrier there.
Dan:
With the optical turnstiles, they have barriers, but in almost every case, you can push your way through those. There are barriers there but when you're talking about the force they can withstand, almost no company has one that I would say is as strong as a door, is going to give you that that level of protection. Smarter is really great because they have ones with locking brakes. So you literally have to break that glass. And it's security glass so it's really, really hard to break to get through there.
Dan:
So it's going to give you the same kind of protection that a standard door at your facility would offer. And the applications' form vary so much because they can be narrow. About 28 inches is standard. You can do ADA, which is 36 inches. You can go even wider up to 48 inches. And so that's going to allow for, let's say, one entrance where traditionally with waist highs or full heights, you're going to have to have, basically, a pedestrian gate for ADA access with an optical turnstile. You don't need that. You can use it for ADA access and use it every single day for just traditional access control as well. They're also going to integrate with any sort of access control and they actually have smarts in them. They're IP addressable with full heights.
Dan:
And with waste highs, generally they're not IP addressable. They're a little bit dumber than the opticals. The opticals actually are going to have chips in them and some smarts and are going to do some computing on their own. The big thing is really detecting tailgate detection. They're also going to do wrong way entry. So if I'm trying to come in and you're trying to leave, I can't use your credential that you used to come out to slip in past you. The systems are going to detect those. They're going to know that I tried to come in. I didn't have a credential. And what's cool about them is how fast they can go. So if you had 20 people trying to leave that building, it's just going to notice them coming. And as long as you're not doing like anti-passback and make them a card out, they're going to come through. It's going to spring open, let them all go through. And as soon as anyone tries to come in the opposite way, it's going to start alarming. And it's going to notify staff that somebody came in that wouldn't.
Dan:
Same thing when people are carding in, if you had 10 people in a row, everyone's trying to get into work. They're all carding in. Once that 11th person tries to come in behind the 10th, it's going to know, all right, I had 10 cards and I had 11 people come in. This last person should not be in here. It's going to alarm. It's going to notify. It's going to let staff know. Now, it's not going to do… A lot of people think that these gates are going to clamp down and chop somebody's arm off and that's just not the case. They are always going to default to safety. So if it can close, it will. But if it detects a human in there or an object it's not going to close.
Dan:
So that's really where it's a deterrence and it's detection, but is not prevention in a lot of ways. Now with the locking brakes, you get a lot more prevention. They are a barrier there at least that's very, very difficult to get through. We actually have some ballistic protection as well, where they can withstand up to nine millimeter bullets. So that's a really cool thing. Not every turnstile company does that, but we're one of the ones that do that, which is really cool. You could always put a ballistic film over some of the other ones. And that's going to give you some protection. I don't know if it's to the degree that we have, but it is going to at least give you some time, right?
Dan:
If there is… One thing we talk about, and unfortunately is an issue, is an active shooter situation. So it is not going to prevent that person from getting in the building if you have an optical turnstile. But it is going to one, make sure that that incident, if before, they were able to get into the building and get to their intended target now that that incident is going to happen right there at the entrance where you have additional security, you have ways to allow people to exit, and it's going to stop them at least, let's say a minute, two minutes, whatever it is, and allow more people to escape a lot more people to get out, allow your security to respond. So that's a big thing.
Dan:
That's why a lot of corporate campuses are putting them in and people are putting opitcals in because they want that feeling of being an open campus, especially you're talking about like fortune 500 companies that they're big on technology. They're big on work environment. And these allow you to have a very high level of security while keeping things open. Aesthetically, they're very pleasing. You could do powder coated or stainless steel. You can do company logos on them, lighting. There's a million different options you can use to really reflect your brand or your corporate culture. Whatever you want to do to make it not seem quite so security.
Dan:
So that's why you get those put into anywhere. I always ask people, "Do aesthetics matter in your building?" And if they do, it's almost always going to be an optical turnstile. If they don't matter and you don't care what stuff looks like, generally, the more cost-effective measure is going to be going with a full height turnstile. And the waist high is somewhere in there in between where they don't need maximum security and they don't really care what it looks like. They just want something that's cost-effective.
Dan:
I could talk about all these different models all day. I think, at the end of the day, most people aren't going to know what turnstile they need for their facility unless they go and talk to somebody because…
Andy:
That's probably why we're here.
Dan:
Yeah, exactly, right. Hopefully, this is giving somebody who's saying I want to stop tailgating or piggybacking and I need to control access and this door's just not cutting it. What do I need? Hopefully, this gives some insight into some possible solutions for them.
Andy:
So tailgating, piggybacking, they're not the same.
Dan:
Correct.
Andy:
But a lot of times they're used in the same context.
Dan:
Yeah. I've definitely had a million people when they're talking about tailgating, they'll say piggybacking and I've definitely seen them used in different contexts. So I've seen some people say that tailgating is basically when someone unintentionally or you unintentionally are having someone follow behind you. So they have malicious intent, but you don't. Whereas piggybacking is both of you have malicious intent. So whether that is I'm letting you, literally, on my back or I'm holding the door open for you purposefully, or I'm trying to trick a turnstile, let's say that full height turnstile, we both get in that compartment together. So that's the big difference between them is a full height turnstile, for example, is going to stop tailgating completely. But if you're talking about piggybacking where me and you are both colluding and I'm saying, "Hey man, you know, you forgot your card for work today. Just coming here with me. I'll scan my badge and we'll go in together." That would be more so the piggybacking.
Dan:
I know as well with revolving doors, security revolvers, if I have credentials to be in that building and I'm in the building and I'm leaving, and you don't, I basically, get in the adjacent compartment as you're leaving and I try and use your exit as a way into the building. That would be another example of piggybacking. So tailgate is basically when someone is maliciously or whatever their reasons is, following behind you when you are basically not giving them permission to follow up behind you.
Andy:
Does human hacking fall into that? Or is that the broad term of the whole thing?
Dan:
I would say human hacking, that could fall into it. So if, let's say, I'm trying to get access to a data center, right? And it's a really big building. There's a lot of people there. I might make buddies with you. And we talk for five, 10 minutes. I'm like, "Man, I forgot my card. Is it cool? Can I come in this turnstile with you real quick? I don't want to get in trouble. I need to get in there." That would be a form of human hacking. The other thing that I see a lot with that is, let's say you have a guard who is accepting credentials. You have whether it's a guard or a receptionist, and you have a desk there and their job is to take IDs, check IDs to make sure they're good and let them go.
Dan:
The problem is humans are fallible and it's very… Depends on who the person is, but a lot of times these people are getting paid minimum wage, especially when you're looking at guards. And so it's sometimes they just don't care. But other times they're easy to convince that, "Hey, my name's Bob, I'm here all the time. I forgot my ID today. Is it cool? Can you give me a pass through?" And humans obviously have empathy and they can take that pleading and say, "Oh, I get it. I've been there. I'm going to let you through." Turnstiles are great. Especially with opticals because they take that element away. They don't play favorites. They don't take sick days we say.
Dan:
And with human hacking, you could have worked at this facility for 10 years and you got fired and you're pissed. You got fired yesterday. That security guard doesn't know you got fired. So they think you have access. They think you should be there and they let you through. And maybe you say, "Hey Bob, I forgot my card today. Is it cool if I come in?" But really you're there with a vendetta. So that's another form of human hacking. And it's one reason to put in turnstiles.
Dan:
If you still do have a guard and let's say they have an emergency override button, they can allow people through those turnstiles. Now you have a count of every person that guard has let through. So if you have, let's say, three guards in your facility and two of them let through about two or three people a day. And the other one lets in seven, eight people a day. Well, now you, because of that turnstile, you have video evidence because it triggers an event and now you have a video of him letting people through and you can now talk to that guard and say, "Hey man, what's going on? Why are you letting so many people in?" So all these systems are way to help deter, help stop human hacking as well.
Andy:
Good stuff. Good stuff. We talked about Door Detective yet?
Dan:
We haven't. No.
Andy:
That's a cool product. Let's talk about that and its revolutionary stamp on the market now.
Dan:
Yeah. So Door Detective is one thing that Smarter makes that nobody else makes. It's really cool as far as its ability to stop tailgating in really secure areas. So with the turnstile, generally those are all going at entry points. And then once somebody is in your building, you might have a card reader on certain doors with different levels of security. So let's say that you have a data closet. Obviously, you need to really protect that data closet and you have a lot of employees and everyone's got basically like level one access to get in the building, level two access or level three access is that data closet. If you just have a card reader on that door and let's say one person has level two, level three access to get in, who knows who's following in behind them and whether that's tailgating or piggybacking where it's colluding together. You really don't have a way to keep track of that.
Dan:
So you could put an optical turnstile in, but again, an optical turnstile, generally, isn't going to be a prevention. You might get some detection there, but they're pretty expensive. So it's tough to justify that on just one door that's used very, very infrequently. Where a Door Detective comes in is it traditionally mounts on the frame of a door so it's really unobtrusive. It's really small. It's really cost-effective when compared to a turnstile. And if I go in that room, it's basically using an algorithm and optical sensors to detect that I came in and I'm the only one that came in, no one followed in behind me. Because if it detects that it's going to alert your staff. You can tie it in with your CCTV.
Dan:
So now you have an event trigger and you see that Bob came and somebody followed in behind him and they weren't supposed to be there. So now you can address that issue. You can see if there is a potential breach in your security where otherwise without Door Detective, you really wouldn't know. I would say there's analytics on cameras that are trying to do similar stuff. And if you had a very, very secure facility, I would recommend both because they're both, obviously, with anything there's some issues. There's ways to beat systems. So by having both, you're, basically, making sure nobody can get in there. Nothing's going to beat your system. You have both. And I think the analytics for that, with cameras, aren't quite there yet. I think in five, six years, they'll probably be there. But for now I think Door Detective is probably by far the best solution you have for once you're past that entry point how do you detect tailgating and piggybacking past that point.
Andy:
That's an important stuff, right there. That's very useful stuff too, for any… Especially for data centers where their server cages are.
Dan:
Yeah.
Andy:
That's number one best case use for that.
Dan:
Yeah, 100%. I think data centers are going to be huge for it. Any facility that has…
Andy:
Pharmacies.
Dan:
Pharmacies, any facility that has different levels of security once you're in that building and you need to actually protect that stuff. You're putting those different levels of security there for a reason. If you didn't care about it, then you wouldn't be doing that. So if you're going to do that really do it, and actually protect those areas that need protecting. Yeah. I think there's really no other solution out there that can do that like Door Detective. Yeah, so I would say the other two elements of a physical access security, I would talk about real quick, that pair with the turnstiles stuff with Door Detectives would be a security revolver.
Dan:
So that generally falls into the same space as a full height turnstile. It's really similar going on the outside of a building. You never going to really put them inside of a building. But those are probably the highest level of security you can get. So with a full height turnstile, one, it's open. So if there's people on the other side and God forbid somebody has a gun, you can shoot, basically, through that. Or I know we spoke with a pretty high-end client that had some big concerns about security and they were worried about somebody literally throwing a grenade through their turnstile because you can fit your hand through there. So with a security revolver, imagine it's that big rotating section, the rotating door, different sections, but you can make those bulletproof so that's one really great thing about them. They're solid.
Dan:
So basically air infiltration with a full height turnstile, you got to have a door behind it to prevent air infiltration in your facilities, or you're not paying a ton with your HVAC. With a security revolver you can actually make a seal. So that's one really nice thing about it. Two, you can do Bulletproof glass. You can make sure people can't shoot through it or throw a grenade through it, whatever it is. And then the other thing with those is with a turnstile, you can piggyback me. We can go in there together, collude, hit the badge and get in. With a security revolver it's got time of flight detection. So, basically, it knows… And also has weight detection. So it's going to know that two people are in there. So with those, with the high end ones, there's no way to beat those.
Dan:
So that's a really… You got to know if you have a very high level of security at your entrance and especially if you have a slow throughput, because they take sometimes about 10 seconds per person to get through because they do have that real high level of security. But if you don't need people getting in really quickly and you need a very high level of security, security revolver is what you're going to want to put on the outside. And they're called PILs, personal interlocks. Those pair with those only because with a security revolver, they're not ADA compliant. If you have a wheelchair you're not able to get through there or at least comfortably and meet ADA standards.
Dan:
A personal interlock pairs with those. It's basically, if you imagine a big box with a door on either side, you walk in it detects that no one's in there with you and then unlocks the door on the other side, but those have the ability to be ADA compliant. So basically the whole center section can open up. It's a big 36 inch plus door and you're going to have an opener on it. And somebody with a disability, in a wheelchair, can get through those as well. So those are, I think, just important side notes because they pair. If you're looking at tailgate detection, if you're looking at controlling your facility, turnstiles and then security doors, as well as security revolvers, and then the Door Detective are probably the main things you want to consider when you're looking at solutions for your facility.
Andy:
Well, it's another one of those things that the security integrator, whether it's us or anybody else, is that's what we're here to do is help walk you through the process of, "Okay, will it actually fit here? What's needed here? These are the types that are going to work best. These are the pros and these are the cons." And get all of that written up into a nice little concisive thing that can be easily understood. That's why we're here as well. But just knowing the overview of all the options from full height, waist height, optical, PIL, Door Detective, and all the pros and cons to those are good stuff.
Dan:
Yeah. It's the same thing as when people call you and they're just thinking about a security camera. It's like, "I need a camera here." Well, okay. There's a million questions as to what really you need and what fits best in your facility. And that's why these are just like everything you guys deal with in security. It might seem simple at first. And then you start talking about, okay, well there's seven different options you could do, and within those options, there are 15 different sub options. And so it can get overwhelming. And that's why guys like me and you are… It's good to be the resource and help people and guide them through that process.
Andy:
Right, right. Exactly. Because we had one of those things I was working on the other day, it was like, in the description of the spec, it's like, "Please provide one high lumen projector."
Dan:
High lumen.
Andy:
High lumen.
Dan:
It's pretty broad.
Andy:
Yeah. 10 years ago, high lumen was 6K. High lumen now is like 40K.
Dan:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and people, when they're trying to meet spec too, it's like, "What is the bare minimum that could meet this spec?" They'll find a ten-year old one. They'll be like, "It says high lumen." So we match the spec. Yeah.
Andy:
Yeah. So it's kind of like, "Okay, what do you need in this spot versus… A, what do you want to spend? What can you spend? How important is security level to you?" And all that.
Dan:
I think the biggest mistake people make with anything in the security realm is they think, whether it's a camera or turnstile, they think, "Okay, this is the piece of equipment that I need." And they're not thinking about it in a holistic approach of "What do I want to achieve in my facility? What am I trying to protect? What is the goal here? And then how do these individual components fit within that goal?"
Dan:
And I think people miss that and they just say like, "Well, somebody told me I needed a camera on this door." Or, "Somebody told me I need a turnstile here and what's the best turnstile?" And it's like, "Well, there's a whole lot of components in your security system that are working together. Let's make sure you're getting the best solution. That's going to encompass all these different little sub components and make it a real, true, holistic, security system versus just throwing a reader on a door here or security camera there."
Andy:
Yeah. And the use case has also evolved because this time last year, it was all about controlling access. Fast forward eight months, we're putting thermal screeners in with turnstiles to make sure people actually take their temperature before they walk through the door.
Dan:
Yeah. The, the solutions… That's one thing we didn't really talk about is the solutions vary so much between, maybe you just want to control access, but maybe you want weapons detection. Maybe you want theft prevention. Maybe you want to just control the flow of people. So there's a whole lot of different solutions and different end goals for turnstiles that people can use them for. And I think sometimes people just think they're just straight for security and they can do security, but at the same time, they can a lot of different things and integrate with a whole different amount of other systems like detection systems. And you're talking about for loss prevention, we'll do those in warehouses where they're seeing people steal a ton of stuff. And so they're not screening people coming in for weapons, which they can do, but they're screening people coming out for theft.
Andy:
For stuff.
Dan:
Yeah, for their stuff. So there's a whole lot of different applications for these.
Andy:
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